Article: Gaelic distillery names and pronunciation

Caperdonich is a strange one. The well was apparently known as "Tobar Domnach" (Sunday Well?). No one seems sure why and when it became "Caper"donich! Any theories out there?

This article was prepared over the period of a few months (!) where I collected information from a great number of sources. Caperdonich is one of the distilleries I have yet to have a 'done' feeling over.

Like you said Iain, it looks like noone really knows where the name comes from. And your "Tobar Domnach" description I havent even found yet! The change to 'Caper' does indeed look kind of weird... But then again, look at the Ladybank example ;)

If there is anyone with more knowledge on this one.. Any Gaelic speakers? Would love to know more about this one (and a few others ;)).

My theory (for what it's worth!) is that someone got confused by the "Gothic" captial T that the Ordnance Survey used to identify the well on the map, mistaking it for a C. Not sure how the b became a p, but English oral usage (! sorry - that sounds a tad peculiar!) might have resulted in Caber evolving to Caper?

Anyway, this is just conjecture. Time to consult the Scottish Placename Society for an expert view, perhaps!

It wouldnt be the first time where the Ordnance Survey would change a name... I have seen references of that before.

Currently a show runs on the BBC2 "Map man", and in there the same thing is being mentioned a few times. Last week a sheeps herder in Wales explained they use entirely different names even for area's among the other herders then OS uses on their maps.

And during some long distance walks I did in the past I got explained the same by people from B&B's etc we stayed at.

hi sir

I commend you for your effort. The only thing missing that I would find useful in some cases, is a key to the pronunciation you've given. In some words the pronunciation could go two different ways:

Ledaig: LEADaig

Is that LEAD as in the metal, or LEAD as is leading/guiding?

The link to the John Butler's sound file site was a nice addition, but in some cases his pronunciation seems to contradict the one given by you, as in Oban. Unless I'm wrongly interpreting your pronunciation.

Still, you've provided a useful source on a pretty confusing topic.

Thanks,

Franco

The capitalization is pointing out where the emphasis lies. Also in this case I typed it out how you would speak the word. So indeed, as the word lead. Excuses for not being too clear on that =) Eventually it would be great to include sound files for all the distilleries.

I'm quite sure I could do them, but problem is I am not a native speaker so there will always be a Dutch accent over them, which is enough for me to decide not to include those files until I find someone who can provide them to me.

The CD mentioned on the bottom of the article is a very good source for correct pronunciation, also John Butlers website will help you more.

And pronunciation DOES vary on distillery names, weirdly. As Scotland is a melting pot of different languages you will occasionally see the locals using a different way to pronounce something then another Scot will do in another part of the country (see for example Bruichladdich for a classic example). Scottish Gaelic and old Norse for example have different ways of pronunciation which are the source of these differences. I tried to follow the local version.

This is a very comprehensive list, and as a Gaelic learner, I would happily agree with your pronunciations. Very nice to see a proper pronunciation listed for Bruichladdich too, despite their marketing.

One issue, though, is the pronunciation of Glen Mhor. Gleann is masculine, so the m in mor should not aspirate/lenite. Mhor should follow only feminine nouns. Hence the correct name of the whisky should be Glen Mor (the same as the geographis feature after which it is named) and pronounced as it is spelt. Glen Mhor appears to be a twee spelling designed to make it look more "authentic", despite having no basis in grammar. I have never known whether to pronounce it as misspelt, or whether to be true to the Gaelic name and pronounce it "glen more" - and risk correction from those who do not speak Gaelic.

Haha, if that is so, it certainly isnt the only distillery name that has been changed for marketing reasons Nick ;)

But then, names get changed for all kinda reasons. Marketing is one (see the Cardhu issue, Glenfiddich, Glenmorangie, etc), but also non-marketing reasons. The Ordnance Survey also soemtimes makes an error, and then local names get changed over time. This article had comments about such issues but it seems somehow those comments are gone. Very weird, maybe there is an error in the software soemwhere ...

Problem fixed :) You ight want to read the first few post about Caperdonich.

Why the first "h" in Thamdhu? I have never seen any spelling other than Tamdhu either at the distillery or on the bottles!

The explanation of Auchentoshan cannot be correct, according to the grammar: while "an t-oisean" does mean "the corner", it's nominative, and so couldn't be the second part of this placename. Perhaps Watson's seminal "History of the Celtic Place Names of Scotland" would offer a better explanation.

Hey Fearchar I MacIllFhinnein,

I might have to get hold of that book :) I cant remmeber finding any conflicting pronunctations (which are all written out by myself, I REALLY hope someday I can find a a native Gaelic speaker to help me out with soundfiles!!!) or translations on that distillery.

Thanks for your input!

very good

Pronunctiation for uisge beatha would be nice!!

*Unf!* Good one!

That would be something like Ùske Báy

Definitively one that would benefit highly from a sound file however ;)

Uisge beatha is pronounced ishka bey-ha with the stress on the ish and the bey.

Ah thats better, thanks Nick :)

Would you be interested in providing sound files for all the distillery names Nick? If your PC is able to record sound files (usually they do, you just need a microphone) it shouldnt be too hard...

Jeroen - I'm afraid I don't have the technology and, in any case, my English accent might cause raised eyebrows. My interest in Gaelic is purely as a learner.

Interesting to see the comment that Ordnance Survey sometimes get spellings wrong. I am currently lobbying them to correct the Gaelic spelling of Bowmore from Bogh Mor to Bogha Mor (with an accent on the Mor, of course).

Hi Nick,

On the accent, thats exactly why I choose not to do them myself, hehe. A Dutch accent is even worse... I once heard a site where a native German did Gaelic files. Ugh.... And as Dutch is a Germanic language as well I decided to stay well clear from doing them myself ;)

Interesting note on Bowmore! I dont know much about Gaelic other then whisky-gaelic. Good to see people care about an endangered language.

As the sales manager for "The Gaelic Whiskies" I have thoroughly enjoyed reading over this page.
I would just like to point out that very few whisky companies promote their Gaelic heritage (it is said by many that whisky was invented by the Gaels), but we insist on Gaelic spelling on all of our blended and vatted malts. Te Bheag and Poit Dhubh are sadly missing from this site as they are not single malts, however they are the most Gaelic of all malt whiskies!!

Fascinating website! Are you aware of the Scottish Place-names Society. If not, I can find details. They are the real experts in this subject.

Well, if they spot any errors or have additional information thats welcome. But for me personally, the research for this article has been done a long time ago and IMO the article is useful enough as it is!
Maybe I should take a close look whether new distilleries need to be added, and then I would need some help as I prolly have to rely on the distilleries in question for reliable translations...

At a glance the translations look professional but there is much ongoing research and the occasional revisions. I notice you have picked up on Glenfiddich's false translation. This is like Gleneagles (famous hotel & golf resort) which uses an eagle as its logo. The place-name is probably Gleann eaglais - glen of the church. But I am certainly no expert. I did find an alternative origin for Arran as being the "Isle of Apple Trees" (an Irish source) but remember once reading it meant "kidney-shaped". I will alert the Society, they will be delighted that you approach this with depth of interest - very pleasing!

Hello again James :) If they have anything thats useful to add, or new insights into certain names its all welcome, either as a post in the comments, or maybe added into the list!
PS: this article has by far the most comments added... The Clydesdale Alfred Barnard article also has a good number, but it seems this article has quite some interest from readers and people who like to add their bit of information! Thats a good thing :)

Hello Jeroen, I'll do a bit of digging among my papers and see if I find any useful snippets. Meanwhile I wish to mention Loch Lomond. The description above is correct - beacon or elm. The River Leven (Gaelic Leamhain in Watson's Cektic Place-names book) flows out of the loch southwards through the Vale of Leven to join the River Clyde at Dumbarton (fort of the Britons), ancient capital of the Welsh-speaking kingdom of Strathclyde that stretched from there to what is now North Wales. I think there is a convention in Gaelic place-names that the glen and the river take their names from the mountain. If that is the case then beacon would be more logical as hilltops are perfect signalling stations. Stand on Salisbury Crags or Arthur's Seat in the heart of Edinburgh, look north into Fife and you will see East and West Lomond Hills 3 miles apart - they must have been signalling stations for ancient peoples. Anyway I'll drop by again and hope to contribute as well as enjoy the site.

Excellent reference work...

A couple of questions: A lot of people I know actually pronounce Ledaig as 'leCHECK'. Is there any foundation for this - I'm afraid my gaelic doesn't quite come up to scratch yet...
Similarly, I've heard St. Magdalene pronounced in the upper class English way (MAUDlin) on a number of occasions. I assume that this is just the English asserting their far superior (??) pronunciation on the Scots...

Slaínte!
Jon

Neither of those alternatives you mention I heard of before Jon. So IMO its unlikely they are in use much. Where did you hear them? There is much confusion on many names on how to pronounce them, especially between people who have not visited the area's in question. But even then some can actually be different, as outlined in the article and in some reactions.

Jon Wells on Ledaig - near where I lived in Glasgow was a Ledaig Road which was always pronounced LEADaig with equal stress on both parts.
To my knowledge, Magdalene is always pronounced in Scotland and Ireland as shown above. The English version is one of several mysteries. Here are two others - Featherstonehall (pron. Fanshaw) and Cholmondley (pron Chumley). A possible explanation is that the English are not very good at pronouncing foreign words (sweeping generalisation!) and very quickly anglicise them for ease of pronounciation.

I have heard the "lecheck" pronunciation of Ledaig, but it would have no reason to be pronounced this way in Gaelic. In Gaelic, sound values are attached to groups of letters rather than to individual letters. Whilst "de" and "di" can be pronounced with a "j" sound, "da" cannot. Having said that, many people who do not speak Gaelic will embrace pseudo-Gaelic pronunciation with enthusiasm, even when it is incorrect!

In any case, I cannot see any obvious meaning of Ledaig in Gaelic. Perhaps its origin is in another language altogether.

The "led" part clearly means a slope, deriving from "leathad" which occurs in mountain names all over Scotland and I would imagine that the "aig" is just a diminutive ending?

Grant - I had overlooked leathad - embarrassing since I frequently drive through a place called Leathad Oilibheir! I had always mentally pronounced it as in leabhar (as lyo-it if that makes any sense - but never heard anyone say it aloud) but happy to be told the right pronunciation. Is Led- used in any other placenames?

WJ Watson's "Celtic Place-names of Scotland mentions Ledcreiff as "tree slope". Led is certainly slope. he mentions Ledaig but frustratingly, no explanation of its meaning. There is a Ledcameroch Road, Bearsden, near Glasgow so presumably it is named after a place but I know not where. Considering Scotland's topology, there should be lots of Led in them thar hills!
As for the pronunciation of Ledaig could be Leh-chaik rather than Le-check?

I still don't see where the softened d would come from.

Caol is an interesting word.
Most Gaelic words are also in Irish Gaelic, which we call Irish, as the languages were one a few hundred years ago.
Caol in Irish is pronounced Kwayal, or Kwaeel, depending on dialect. Under the influence of Norse this is not Cool in Gaelic but like the Swedish Chef saying cool!

It fundamenatlly means narrow, as an adjective, or subtle or shrill of voice, or a narrow thing as a noun. Meanings include wrist and ankle, a strait and a narrow part in general. Caolas also means strait, as in Caolas Loch Ailse, the Kyle of Lochalsh.

its good

Gearóid Ó Laoi’s comment on “caol” prompted me to consult my Celtic Place-names “bible” by W J Watson. Certainly “caol” is given as a narrow stretch of water. But a word very close is “cúil” for a nook, as in Coolsuppeen in Ireland (for Cúil soipin = nook of the little wisp) and Dalsupin in Ayrshire, Scotland for Dale of the little wisp, referring to tufts of grass.

Anybody know the meaning of Ardvreck and/or Ardverikie? I know that the Gaelic "Ard" means "height", and I can surmise that "vreck" and "verikie" have the same origin, but there are no "Vs" in my Gaelic-English dictionary and there doesn't seem to be any "bhreck" or "mhreck" which would fit.

My guess would be speckled height - Aird Bhreac.

In Gaelic dictionaries, the "h" is seldom shown at the beginning of words, so breac is the dictionary entry. It is softened to bhreac in this case because aird is feminine.

Ardvreck (Candace Malcolm asks) is probably "speckled promontory". I understood "Ard" = promontory and the second part is from breac = speckled (i.e. bhreac). I can visualise land with a mix of rock outcrops, coarse grass, mosses, heather and bracken, giving that speckled appearance with a blend of greys, greens and browns.

Thanks, both James Brown and Nick Brown - and the "vreck" in Corryvreckan (whirlpool off Mull) would likely refer to the roiled-up, hence spotted or rough-looking, water in the corrie, or hollowed-out, water of the whirlpool - ?

I suspect Corryvreckan means kettle of salmon or trout - Coire Bhreacain? I'm not sure about the last word as I haven't a clue how to turn breac (noun meaning trout or salmon) into a plural genetive.

Breac is indeed speckled. As a noun in Irish it also means trout (trout are of course speckled) or even fish in general. It also, in Irish means patchy, and as a verb means to write down or to jot, or to paint e.g. a wall. Breacadh an lae, the dawing of the day, etc. Bhreac would be anglicised bhreac.

Yes Candace, the turbulent water and foam would create a speckled effect. By the way, There is a ruined castle at Ardvreck and it stands on a promontory.

Ardverikie Estate featured in the BBC TV series "Monarch of the Glen" but I can't offer a meaning for the place-name.

I meant to write bhreac would be Anglicised vreck or vrick, and in Ireland vrack, as the "ea" sound is i in Gaelic and ah (short) in Irish.

Yes, but in the context of Corryvreckan it's hard to see the speckled water coming into it. Firstly, it makes no sense with the corry. Second, it makes no sense with the -an ending.

Thanks v. much to all who have clarified the "vreck" (bhreac) for me (and I apologize for putting Corrievreckan whirlpool off Mull, when in fact it is north of Jura). I have visited Ardvreck Castle twice, and been moved by the story of Montrose's betrayal there - and I wonder if its name refers to the "rough heights" around Loch Assynt - Quinag, for eg. Also, it's rather fanciful, but in regard to Corrievreckan I can see a whirlpool being described as a "rough hollowed- out place" - only in the sea, not in a mountainside as it is commonly used. But I know this does not meet Nick's comment about the
"an" . . . fascinating stuff, this Gaelic (for a Nova Scotian!)

Well coire also means a cauldron, or a cauldron-shaped place. The breacan could also be a Gaelic plural of breac, a trout or a fish. I know some Gaelic plurals are in -an. The Irish plural of breac is usually bric.

How would one pronounce "Eite" (as in "Gleann Eite", in English "Glen Etive")? And has "Eite" a definitive meaning? I have heard both "an evil spirit" and "mountainous" - i.e. "a mountainous valley" for "Gleann Eite". Thanks to any who could advise.

As a courtesy to the other people who also receive email notification would it be possible to move any off-topic (as in, non whisky Gaelic discussions) to the forum?

It is a very interesting discussion, but I think it warrants a topic all on its own :)

Eite is pronounced Aitch-uh